by Ruby Wyles
Team RunRun Coaches Cheyne Inman, Lindsey Funch, Brant Stachel, and Jessica Hadley came together for a live panel discussion titled “Training Tips for your Fall Marathon” moderated by Kyle Fulmer. Our coaches answered eight of your most popular questions, and Ruby Wyles summarized their responses below. Team RunRunners and Coaches were able to join the live discussion via Zoom and can catch the replay here. We plan to make “Talk with the Experts” an ongoing monthly series, so stay tuned for more discussions coming soon!
1. When should I start training for my marathon? How long should my build be?
Cheyne: There is no one-size-fits-all: it really depends on where you are starting from. Many 16-18 week programs use the first 6-8 weeks to build up mileage and develop your aerobic base. For someone who races and trains year round, they start the build already with a base, so a shorter marathon plan may be more appropriate. For someone who has never run a marathon, I think a 16-20 week build up is necessary to give runners enough time to gradually progress the weekly long run and overall mileage.
Lindsey: It depends! I generally recommend runners already being comfortable running 25-30 miles per week, including double digit runs, before starting a 14-16 week marathon specific block. For runners not there yet, aim for a 20-24 week marathon cycle, allowing you to build mileage and add in intensity gradually. A gradual progression mitigates the chance of overuse injuries!
Brandt: Everyone’s a little different and it depends on a multitude of factors: marathon experience, current fitness and aerobic capabilities, recent injuries, and more. Generally speaking, however, a 10-16 week marathon build is advisable.
Jessica: Some athletes thrive off a short build while some new athletes running a marathon may want a 16-18 week build, depending on what training they have done before the marathon. The bigger their base before starting a marathon specific block, the shorter the build an athlete can do to safely build up for the marathon.
2. Are training races (e.g. a half marathon) a good idea during marathon training?
Cheyne: Shorter races in a marathon buildup are a great way to test the fitness you’ve built in training, dial in your race day routine, fueling, and pacing strategies. The marathon is a long race, and anything can happen on race day –from stomach problems to bad weather and more– so racing a shorter race in your build up allows you to get something out of your training block in case things don’t go perfect on marathon race day.
Lindsey: In short: great but not essential. Training races can be a good way for runners who deal with race day anxiety to feel the excitement and nerves without as much pressure, as well as allowing them to go through the motions of race day preparation. If you plan on racing a half marathon during the build, aim for it to be 4-6 weeks out from your goal marathon so you have enough time to recover fully afterwards. Another option is to use races as aided workouts— rather than running them all-out, the races could be a chance to practice running at marathon effort with the benefits of having aid stations. With the excitement and hype of races, it can be easy to start too fast, so training races can help you practice holding back (and hitting your prescribed paces or efforts) when there’s competition.
Brandt: I like the idea of training races to give athletes practice at their race day routine: portapotty, fueling, breakfast, travel, etc. That said, I’m cautious about using races as a benchmark or measuring stick for marathon performance. While they can be a general guide, they don’t always equate out.
Interestingly, I was looking at the number of men and women at the US Olympic Marathon trials who had hit the Olympic Trials equivalent (based on Jack Daniels’ running calculator) in the half marathon. There were plenty more athletes who hit the equivalent half marathon time to the respective marathon Olympic Trials standards. This shows that even pros don’t always convert their under-distance races to the full distance. If they can’t, then we shouldn’t be so egotistical to think that we must be capable of it every time as well!
Jessica: I often suggest a half marathon in a build around 6-7 weeks out from the marathon for several reasons. Firstly, it helps me get a good idea of where the athlete’s fitness is, and secondly it is a huge confidence booster that they are gaining fitness. It also helps the athlete get in race mode and work on mental toughness. This is a race where they could completely race it for a PR or use it as a workout depending on what they are looking for. I generally don’t like anything too close to the marathon because I don’t want them fully going to the well before the full..
3. Do I have to do my long run on the weekend?
Cheyne: I often have athletes do their long run on other days of the week, and I don’t think that’s a problem. However, whatever day you do, the keys are that you consistently run long every week or two, and that you aren’t running it the day before or after a workout, or else you’re sacrificing recovery.
Lindsey: There are no hard-and-fast rules when it comes to training plan structure, so find a place in the week that you can carve out 1.5-4 hours— think running time, driving to and from the run (if you don’t run from your door), showering, and grabbing post-run food. Additionally, the long run doesn’t have to be the same day each week. I recommend having 5-13 days between long runs, meaning if one week you get out on Saturday, but the following weekend is crazy, you could shift the next long run to Thursday (5 days) or the following Tuesday (10 days since your last long run) if that works for you. Personally, I’ve coached some runners who found that a 10-day cycle (long run every 10 days) worked best for their schedule and, as a bonus, we could be more intentional about spacing out their hard efforts.
Brandt: We all have lives, work, and families, and sometimes the traditional Saturday or Sunday long run doesn’t fit. I love to put the long run wherever it fits for athletes, and use it as the base of the weekly schedule. So if the long run is on a Wednesday, I don’t put a speed session on Thursday. Instead, I adjust training based on the day of the long run as this really is the bread and butter of marathon training. The mix of volume and intensity both going into and coming out of the long run needs to be just right to ensure fatigue levels are appropriate to hit paces and prevent injury and burnout.
Jessica: One of the great things about having a coach is that we can work with you and your schedule to make it personal for you. I have many athletes that are nurses working shifts that do their long runs during the week, and I actually have to change their schedules weekly.
4. Do I need to do speedwork to run a marathon? Why?
Cheyne: It depends on what you mean by speed work, do you need to be doing 100m sprints every week? No. Could it help? Possibly. It is important to touch on faster paces than marathon pace to make marathon pace feel easier and to also develop different energy systems and strengths. You can do this through faster interval workouts once a week or shorter leg turnover work like 6-8x 100m strides 3x a week. Most importantly, just make sure it isn’t at the expense of your longer, more marathon-specific workouts, or you not recovering and getting hurt.
Lindsey: To complete a marathon, callusing your legs to the time on your feet (read: getting in mileage and some long runs) is more important than incorporating “speedwork”. That said, adding higher intensity training sessions for more experienced runners, can help to improve top-end speed, increase the body’s ability to sustain higher intensities/paces for longer, and give runners a greater number of gears to work from when it comes time to race.
Brandt: Yes and no, it depends. Speed work is great at boosting your neuromuscular system, which can help with running efficiency and strength. However, in my opinion, speedwork is the first thing to be omitted from the marathon build due to time or risk of injury. From talking to experts and leading coaches, it would seem the hierarchy of marathon training is as follows: 1) total aerobic volume, 2) long runs, 3) tempo runs, and then 4) speedwork.
Jessica: Speedwork will help build running economy and improving running economy can have a significant impact on your race. I like to include it once a week. If you are running your first marathon, or don’t have a big base, it’s not as important as building volume and endurance. However, if you want to see a drop in your marathon time, I do believe adding speedwork, combined with marathon specific work in long runs, will help you see fitness gains. For a new runner, speedwork could look like strides at the end of an easy run or power hill strides.
5. When do I need to fuel my runs? What should I fuel with? How do I carry fuel?
Cheyne: Fueling is both individual and universal. Everyone needs to get in calories throughout a marathon to replenish what you use throughout the race, but the most important things are to have a schedule and use fuel that works with your stomach. That takes practice in training to dial in when/ how often to fuel and what nutrition works for you. As far as carrying the fuel, what has worked well for me is tucking gels into tight fitting accessories like arm sleeves, gloves, or short pockets. Another thing I’ve started doing is running with a handheld. Nothing big, just about 10 ounces, and I like to fill mine with liquid fuel like Maurten 360, and often combine that with aid station cups in races too.
Lindsey: The current research shows that YES you do need to fuel your runs, all of them. For endurance runners, running fasted has not been shown to be beneficial. Make sure that you eat some carbs (20-30g) prior to a run, and more if you’re going long or running some higher intensity efforts. From there, in-run fueling is recommended for any run longer than 60-90 minutes, shooting for 50-90g of carbs per hour (so a 20-30g gel every 25-30 minutes). There are a wide variety of ways to carry your fuel, and it really is up to personal preference and the gear you have available. I like to wear shorts that have 2 large side pockets that can fit up to 3 gels each. I also carry a 12-oz handheld water bottle (great for refilling if you’re on a rail trail or passing by a park), which also has a large pocket that can fit 2 more gels. There are also bras (for the ladies) that have up to 5 pockets for snacks, and for carrying fluids, there are lots of belt and vest options made by Solomon, SpiBelt, Flipbelt, UltraSpire, and more. My advice is to experiment and see what works best for you.
Brandt: When running over 100 minutes, the leading research suggests upwards of 100g of carbs per hour. This, however, needs to be trained. I recommend runners pick their gels and fueling source at the beginning of their build, so they can practice it every long run. As much as you’re training your legs and lungs, you need to train your gut to tolerate this as well! Generally, the best fuel is the one you can tolerate best and don’t hate the taste of, given you’re taking in enough carbohydrates. When thinking about the 100g of carbs per hour target, practice fueling every 15 to 30 minutes on easy and marathon paced long runs to ensure the gut is rock solid.
Jessica: Fuel is very specific to the runner – if you are new to fueling I always suggest buying trial packs of different fuel to see what works for your stomach. It can take time to figure out what you like and what doesn’t upset you GI system, but once you do, I recommend practicing with it on all your long runs and during any week day speed sessions. I recommend fueling early and often, generally taking your first source of fuel around 30 minutes into the race. I like athletes to aim for around 50-60g per hour, equating to a gel every 30 minutes. One of the things I see the most is people not being able to handle a gel later in the race which is why fueling early and often can help load up your glycogen stores for later in the race.
Another important factor when thinking about “fuel” is water, electrolytes, and salt. This is also specific to the runner but some runners may opt to carry their preferred hydration in a handheld, take salt chewable tablets for cramps, or salt pills. When training for a fall marathon you are most likely training through brutal summer weather so these are important tools.
6. What are the not-so-little things you as coaches swear by?
Cheyne: I have found that my daily routines have become the most important part of my training as I’ve aged. I do a set of drills daily that I got from Meb Keflezighi’s book “Meb for Mortals”, which has helped with both my form and ability to stay healthy. In the 30 days leading into a goal race, I am intentional about doing everything I can to support my training and recovery: at least 8 hours of sleep, no junk food, doing the little things like stretching and rolling, and no alcohol.
Lindsey: I think many of the listed “not-so-little things” have their place in most everyone’s training, but I think sleep is HUGE. When you’re sleeping, the body repairs, heals, and makes adaptations, so aiming to get MORE THAN 8 hours of sleep each night can be so beneficial. Personally, after a bad night’s sleep or if an athlete’s feeling overly tired, I would rather they skip a training session in service of getting more sleep— running or training while sleep deprived puts you at a higher risk of injury and is also NOT FUN, so getting caught up on sleep and running when you’re mentally and physically firing on all cylinders makes a lot more sense. Fueling and hydrating enough is always important, but especially as the mileage and/or intensity ramps up. It’s totally not a sexy part of training, but making sure nutrition and hydration is on point can make or break your training.
Brandt: Sleep and flexibility – not in your muscles kind, in your training! Just because the plan is written doesn’t mean it has to be followed exactly to the day. The marathon is a grind; sometimes life kicks in and you are under-recovered or not ready for the challenge of the day. A good coach is always in communication with their athletes about their fatigue levels, pain and soreness, so they can adjust their athletes’ training on the fly to save them from blow ups or injuries. Sleep really is the bedrock of our physical and mental health. It’s also when recovery and adaptation truly happen. This is a must to consider when working with athletes. I question whether 10-15 extra minutes running is worth it if it’s forcing the athlete to get up extraordinarily early.
Jessica: I preach that the pillars of a good race are sleeping 8 hours a night, hydration, and nutrition. Sleeping is often harder in the summer because we have so many other factors that keep us from sticking to a regular schedule. I talk to my athletes about what their goals are – if they want to sleep in and run later in the heat that is fine, but if they want to get up early for their long runs they have to go to bed early enough to get enough sleep. Also, because of the excessive amount of sweat most people lose in the summer months during training, it is important to stay hydrated with water and also some type of electrolyte drink. And with nutrition, a great race can come down to a good carb load vs. a bad one; I think most people think a carb load is one day before the race, when actually it should be 2-3 days before the race. Loading up the glycogen stores plus fueling properly on race day will help you not hit the wall and reach your goal!
7. How do I know the difference between expected soreness/ discomfort from training and injury?
Cheyne: I honestly don’t think anyone ever knows for certain, but the way I gauge it is a problem getting worse, staying the same, or getting better. Soreness after a hard workout or race can be misleading. An easy jog the next day can help differentiate between the two: if the soreness eases up during the run, it is likely normal training stiffness; if not, or if I feel a new pain pop up on one of those runs, I will stop and rest a day to see if it was just a little pain or an injury coming on.
Lindsey: A little bit of soreness is normal when you are pushing your body and working to get better. As a general rule, if something is sore post-run, but the soreness wanes after a day of rest or easy activity, that is pretty normal, and not too worrying. If the soreness or discomfort persists, we want to pay more attention to it. As a coach, I am not a physical therapist or medical professional, so it is outside of my scope of practice to diagnose or treat an injury- so if something is very painful (shooting pains, immobile, or causing a change in gait, for example) my suggestion is to get in with your primary care physician, or see a physical therapist or orthopedist that specializes in endurance athletes as soon as possible, so that you can get a diagnosis and a path forward!
Brandt: This is a tough one and often requires the vision and wisdom of someone who has been injured before or seen runners with these types of pains and soreness to help athletes navigate. Generally speaking, though, something that doesn’t return close to baseline after a couple days off running is a red flag for me. If it’s in or near one of the typical troublesome spots such as the ITB, tib post, Achilles, or plantar, I’m also extra cautious. This is an area where good lines of communication in coaching cannot be understated.
Jessica: I joke often that if I woke up and wasn’t sore I would be worried. When you are marathon training you are going to be sore and tired, and little aches and pains may happen. This is normal due to the repetitive nature of running and stress we put on our bodies. However, if you start to feel the same pain repeatedly, and it is hindering your training, changing your stride, or it is more than a 3/10 on the scale of pain, I would like to know as a coach. It may be something we just watch and scale back on harder sessions, or it may be something more serious we need to address.
8. What’s my marathon pace? How do I work out a realistic goal time?
Cheyne: What has worked for me and some of my athletes is this slightly unconventional method. When starting a new training block after time off, I will have myself or my athlete run a hard 3 mile tempo. Assuming that the athlete has previously run a marathon, their average pace for that 3 miles is a good indicator of what pace they are capable of running for their best marathon. By “best marathon”, I’m assuming the athlete had a smooth 3 month build and a hiccup-free race day. Closer to race day, I also have my athletes do longer repeats like 3-4 x 3 miles at what they feel like is their goal marathon pace. If they are consistently maintaining that pace throughout all the intervals, week after week, feeling somewhat controlled, then we can be more confident that they can run that pace for the marathon.
Lindsey: For the first time marathoner, I generally recommend to worry less about pacing and focus more on finding what feels like a sustainable effort. This principle holds true for most runners, but we can get more specific about pacing as runners gain more experience. I often use previous race results to set some training paces, checking in throughout training to make sure that paces and efforts line up. As training progresses and race day gets closer, it becomes easier to estimate realistically what a runner is capable of- we can use some quality sessions or long runs to assess. If you aren’t working with a coach, using a calculator like VDOT or the McMillan Running Calculator to estimate training paces and race equivalents can be helpful by plugging in a recent time trial or race— remember that longer races like a half marathon will be a better predictor of your marathon pace than shorter distances like the 5k or 10k.
Brandt: You need to consider a variety of factors including: temperature, humidity, fitness. In my opinion, there is a difference between your marathon race pace and marathon training pace. For example, building through the heat and humidity of summer, it’s not uncommon for runners to train at 10-15 sec/mile slower than their race day marathon pace. I also like to start my marathon builds with 45-70 minutes straight of marathon (or “conditions adjusted”) marathon pace. If an athlete can do this comfortably and report they could do this for another 1-2 hours, we likely are close to their marathon pace. If not, then we need to reevaluate to ensure we aren’t overreaching throughout the build. As one of the final workouts of the build 2-3 weeks out, I also like to do 90-120 minutes at goal marathon pace (heat adjusted if need be) as the final test for an athlete. We want to know how comfortable this pace is. Could you do it for another 1-2 hours? Again, if not, we need to reassess an athlete’s goal pace for race day. It’s better to have this information 2-3 weeks out than to discover it 10-15 miles into a marathon! This helps us be data-informed in our pacing decisions, as well as setting athletes up for success.
Jessica: I am a VDOT coach so I use the VDOT calculator to give a “marathon pace”, but that may not be your marathon pace- especially if it is based on a short distance race. This is why I generally like to work with athletes before they start building into the marathon so we can look at their fitness and make any changes. Also, goal marathon pace could change during the build. It’s important to have an open line of communication about goals and expectations for your race with your coach. We are here to help you and guide you to your best marathon by having realistic goal setting and race expectation discussions.
If you’re looking to level up your running, whatever your distance, our Team RunRun coaches are here to help!
Ruby is a runner, triathlete, and passionate coach, who is most fulfilled by helping athletes overcome limiting beliefs with joy. She is also a proud science nerd, and advocate for athletes’ mental and physical health.